Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/28/1998 08:25 AM House FIN
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE BILL NO. 473
"An Act relating to training and certification of fire
fighters, fire instructors, and certain emergency
responders; and providing for an effective date."
REPRESENTATIVE MARC HODGINS, SPONSOR spoke in support of the
legislation. He noted that the legislation creates the
Alaska Fire Standards Council in the Department of Public
Safety. It provides for the selection of officers, meeting
schedules, compensation and expenses of the Council and
provides that the Council adopt minimum standards for
employment and curriculum requirements for fire fighters and
fire instructors and their certification. The Council would
establish and maintain fire fighter and fire instructor-
training programs. He emphasized that certification is
optional. The legislation would set goals for fire service
areas and fire fighting personnel. The legislation would
take affect in the year 2000. The legislation was
introduced at the request of the Fire Chiefs Association.
He noted that the legislation is tailored after the Police
Standard Councils.
Representative Grussendorf observed that the Fire Fighter's
Association has concerns regarding the legislation. He
questioned the impact on volunteer fire fighters.
Representative Hodgins stressed that concerns by volunteer
fire fighters were addressed in CSHB 473 (JUD). He
reiterated that certification would be optional.
JAMES WHITE, BATALION CHIEF, ANCHORAGE FIRE DEPARTMENT,
ANCHORAGE noted that he is in charge of fire training. He
spoke in support of the legislation. He emphasized that the
legislation would provide consistent training standards for
volunteer and nonvolunteer departments.
CRAIG GOODRICH, DIRECTOR, FIRE PREVENTION, DEPARTMENT OF
PUBLIC SAFETY spoke in support of the legislation. He
expressed concern with the fiscal impact to the Department,
but noted that the Department is working with the sponsor to
transfer the general fund obligation to designated program
receipts.
Co-Chair Therriault stated that the program would not fit
under the definition of statutory designated program
receipt.
MICHEAL MCGOWAN, PRESIDENT ALASKA FIRE CHIEFS, ANCHORAGE
spoke in support of the legislation. He pointed out that
the state of Alaska has a daily fire loss of $85 thousand
dollars and a fire fatality about every other week. He
emphasized that the legislation would help reduce this
record. The legislation would establish a Council that
would adopt standards. National standards exist. Local
departments need to be in compliance with state and federal
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) laws.
He observed that the Department of Public Safety is
concerned that the legislation would put a burden on their
general fund dollars. He stressed that the Fire Chiefs
Association is not advocating that troopers be reduced to
fund the Council. He pointed out that the state of Alaska
collects $3 million dollars a year in fire insurance premium
packages. Fire prevention and training is funded at
approximately $1.8 million dollars. He acknowledged that
there is opposition among volunteer fire fighters, but
maintained that it is a vocal minority. He stated that the
President and the Second Vice President of the Fire Fighters
Association have indicated that they support the
legislation.
Co-Chair Therriault asked if there were discussions
regarding a private association to oversee the training. He
asked if the Council has to be in state law. He observed
that there are differences between the Police Standards
Council and the proposed Council.
Mr. McGowan stated that there is a national organization
that oversees fire-training standards. He pointed out that
approximately 225 rural fire departments in Alaska would not
be able to meet some of the standards that the National Fire
Protection Association would adopt.
Representative Grussendorf reiterated that there are
concerns by other volunteer departments. He noted that
Anchorage and Fairbanks are the only communities where all
fire fighters are paid.
(Tape Change, HFC 98 - 129, Side 2)
Co-Chair Therriault noted that the majority of fire fighters
outside of Fairbanks are volunteers. Mr. McGowan stated
that he was not aware of any opposition to the current
version from volunteer departments near Fairbanks.
JOHN SHOVER, CHIEF, STEESE VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT
FAIRBANKS spoke in support of HB 473. He stated that state
standards are long overdue. He stressed that unified
standards would met the needs of small rural and large urban
fire departments. Training would provide the flexibility
for fire fighters to move from one department to another.
In response to a question by Co-Chair Therriault, Mr. Shover
explained that new persons are provided with Fire Fighting I
training. Further advance training is subsequently offered.
He stressed that OSHA standards must be met.
Representative Davies questioned the difference between
standards that would be proposed through the legislation and
current standards. Mr. Shover noted that not all
departments could certify to the Fire Fighter I and II
level. Rural fire departments are not in a position to meet
Fire Fighter I and II standards. New standards would
accommodate rural departments.
JOHN WILLIAMS, FORMER MAYOR, CITY OF KENAI spoke in support
of HB 473. He referred to page 3, line 15 and 27. He
stressed that these sections alleviate concerns that
training would be mandatory.
Representative Grussendorf expressed concern that small fire
departments would have to travel for training.
Mayor Williams observed that the city of Kenai obtained
federal, state and private funds for a fire training
academy. He noted that scholarships would be available.
Educational materials can be sent to rural areas
electronically. By the year 2000, every village in the
state of Alaska should be able to receive information
electronically.
LEN MALMQUIST, FIRE CHIEF, CENTRAL EMERGENCY SERVICE, KENAI
spoke in support of HB 473. He maintained that the new
standards would help volunteer departments to comply with
OSHA and national standards. He maintained that the
legislation would save lives and reduce property loss.
Liability would be reduced.
Co-Chair Therriault observed that many departments would not
meet national standards. He asked if the legislation would
require that all departments be brought up to national
standards. Mr. Malmquist emphasized that lacking a state
standard that the court would use national standards. He
stressed that state standards can take into account Alaskan
needs.
Co-Chair Therriault referred to page 2, lines 20 - 22. He
observed that Council meetings could be held telephonically.
JASON ELSON, FIRE CHIEF, CITY OF KENAI spoke in support of
the legislation. He observed that Alaska is a large state
with different conditions. He observed that fire fighters
are one of the last professional entities not required,
through certification, to comply with standards.
Hairdressers must comply with standards.
DAVE BURNNET, KENAI spoke in support of the legislation. He
observed that he represents the fire fighters training
academy that is being built in Kenai. He maintained that
training for fire fighters was better in 1971 then it is
today, in Alaska. He stressed that the Council would
provide organization.
Representative Grussendorf expressed concern that the Fire
Fighter's Association has not voiced support for the
legislation.
Co-Chair Therriault referred to page 2, lines 6 - 8.
Representative Hodgins noted that the language was added in
the House Judiciary Committee. This provision would provide
that two representatives of fire fighters, including at
least one fire fighter administrative officer from the
Alaska State Fire Fighters Association be included on the
Council.
KEVIN KOECHLIN, DIRECTOR, PUBLIC SAFETY, MAT-SU BOROUGH
spoke in support of the legislation, but noted concerns with
the cost of implementation. He observed that recent changes
in emergency medical service (EMS) regulations resulted in a
50 percent rise in the cost of EMS classes. No additional
money was provided for the additional cost. He stated that
once standards are adopted, whether or not they are
voluntary, that courts will go to the state adopted
standard. Those that do not comply with state standards
would have the burden of proving their standard. He
emphasized the need to utilize the tax on fire insurance to
improve the delivery of fire fighting training in the state
of Alaska.
DAVID TYLER, FIRE ASSISTANT CHIEF, HOMER VOLUNTEER FIRE
DEPARTMENT, ALASKA FIRE CHIEF ASSOCIATION spoke in support
of the legislation. He referred to page 2, lines 29 - 31,
"establishing minimum training and performance standards for
certification of fire services personnel that are consistent
with the standards of the National Fire Protection
Association or other applicable standards." He emphasized
that the purpose of this language is to allow rural
departments to be flexible. He observed that it does not
make sense to train fire fighters for tall multi-floor
buildings if there are no tall multi-floor buildings in the
vicinity. He maintained that insurance ratings would not be
adversely affected. The intent is to get the Council in
place. Standards would not be put in place immediately. He
stressed that the President of the Fire Fighter's
Association testified in favor of the legislation in the
House Judiciary Committee.
Representative Davies noted concerns that optional
requirements for certification would become de facto
requirements.
Mr. Tyler stressed that federal requirements exist. Federal
standards are not being met. He envisioned the Council as
the compliance arm of OSHA. The Council would help
departments meet national standards.
DAVE BAUMGARTNER, NORTH SLOPE BOROUGH FIRE DEPARTMENT,
BARROW spoke in support of the legislation, but expressed
concern with the lack of volunteer representation on the
Council. He stressed that fire departments vary greatly in
their ability to implement standards. He suggested that a
significant number of the Council's members should be
volunteers or from volunteer fire departments. He also
suggested that the State Fire Marshal replace the
commissioner of the Department of Public Safety as a member
of the Council. Most municipal fire departments are not
under police departments. He recounted bitter experiences
with the EMS regulations that were passed in recent years.
He suggested that 3 or 4 members be volunteers or
representatives of volunteer fire departments.
Representative Foster noted that all of his 30 villages have
volunteer fire departments. He observed that many of his
villages lack the means to penetrate ice in order to obtain
water for fire fighting.
Mayor Willams expressed support of the addition of two
volunteer fire fighters on the Council. He suggested that
two of the at-large members could be replaced with
volunteers.
Mr. Malmquist clarified that the Council would develop
training packages that would be delivered to local
communities for training in the community. There persons
would not have to be sent to the academy.
Co-Chair Therriault pointed out that the fiscal note is
self-funding. No general fund monies would be used.
(Tape Change, HFC 98 - 130, Side 1)
Members were provided with Amendments 1 - 5 (copies on
file). Representative Hodgins spoke in support of
Amendments 1, 3, 4 and 5. He expressed concern with
Amendment 2. Amendment 2 would replace the commissioner of
the Department of Public Safety with the state fire marshal.
He stressed that as long as the Council is in the Department
of Public Safety and there is a possibility of funding from
the department that the commissioner should be on the
Council.
Representative Davies and Co-Chair Therriault stated that
they would offer additional amendments when the Committee
reconvened. Representative Davies expressed support for two
of the public members to be volunteer fire fighters; one
from a small community and one from a large community. Co-
Chair Therriault stated that he would suggest the addition
of language encouraging the Council to meet telephonically
to reduce costs.
RECESSED/RECONVENED
The House Finance Committee recessed at 10:00 a.m. and
reconvened at 2:05 p.m.
The Committee continued work on HB 473.
Representative Grussendorf MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 1 for HB
473. Amendment 1 would amend section 1 on page 2, line 3
and page 2, lines 6 - 9:
(1) two [four] chief administrative officers or
fire chiefs of local government;
(3) four [two] representatives of fire fighters,
including at least one fire fighter administrative
officer from the Alaska State Fire Fighters
Association; a person appointed under this paragraph
may not, while serving on
the council, be a fire chief; and
There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered.
Representative Grussendorf MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 2 (copy
on file). Amendment 2 would replace "commissioner of public
safety" with "state fire marshal." He spoke in support of
the amendment. He emphasized that all the fire departments
are registered with the fire marshal's office. He
emphasized that the state fire marshal understands fire
fighting programs and training.
Representative Hodgins spoke against the amendment. He
observed that the commissioner of the Department of Public
Safety could appoint the state fire marshal as his designee.
He reiterated that possible funding would come through the
Department of Public Safety.
Representative Martin spoke in support of the amendment. He
noted that the state fire marshal has more to do with the
handling of emergency services.
A roll call vote was taken on the motion.
IN FAVOR: Martin, Moses, Davies, Grussendorf, Foster
OPPOSED: Kohring, Kelly, and Therriault
Co-Chair Hanley and Representative Mulder were absent from
the vote.
The MOTION PASSED (5-3).
Representative Grussendorf MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 3 (copy
on file). The amendment would provide that only one person
could be appointed from a department that consists entirely
of paid employees. Representative Hodgins noted that the
amendment would only apply to Kenai and Fairbanks. There
being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered.
Amendment 4 was WITHDRAWN.
Representative Grussendorf MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 5 (copy
on file). Amendment 5 would delete on page 3, lines 20 -
25: "investigate when there is reason to believe that a
person or fire services training program that is certified
or claiming to be certified under this section does not meet
the minimum training or performance standards adopted by the
council; in connection with an investigation under this
paragraph, the council may subpoena persons, books, records,
or documents related to the investigation and require
answers in writing under oath to questions asked by the
council or the administrator."
Representative Grussendorf noted that fire chiefs feel that
this is their purview. Representative Hodgins stated that
if there is a need for investigation powers that the
statutes could be amended at a later date. Co-Chair
Therriault anticipated that additional statutory authority
would be needed in the future. Representative Grussendorf
pointed out that the amendment would alleviate concerns by
volunteer organizations. There being NO OBJECTION,
Amendment 5 was adopted.
Representative Davies amended Amendment 6 to amend:
Page 2, line 3:
(1) three [FOUR] representatives of fire
fighters;
Page 2, following line 5, insert and renumber sections
accordingly:
(3) the commissioner of the Department of Public
Safety or his designee;
(4) two volunteer fire fighters, one from a
community with a population of 2,500 or less and
one from a community which a population greater
than 2,500;
Page 2, line 10 is amended to read as follows:
(6) [(4)] two [FOUR] members of the public at
large with at least one
[TWO] member from a community [COMMUNITY] with a
population of 2,500 or less.
Representative Davies explained that the amendment would
result in one additional volunteer then had been previously
adopted through amendments. In addition, the commissioner
of the Department of Public Safety would be added. The
state fire marshal was previously added by Amendment 2.
Representative Davies spoke in support of having both the
commissioner of Department of Public Safety and the state
fire marshal on the Council.
Co-Chair Therriault questioned if it is necessary to have
both the commissioners of the Department of Public Safety
and the state fire marshal on the Council.
Representative Davies MOVED to divide the question between
subsection (3) and subsection (4). There being NO
OBJECTION, it was so ordered.
Representative Davies MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 6A:
Page 2, line 3:
(1) three [FOUR] representatives of fire fighters;
Page 2, following line 5, insert and renumber sections
accordingly:
(3) the commissioner of the Department of Public
Safety or his designee;
A roll call vote was taken on the motion.
IN FAVOR: Moses, Davies, Grussendorf
OPPOSED: Martin, Mulder, Davis, Foster, Kelly, Kohring,
Therriault
Co-Chair Hanley was absent from the vote.
The MOTION FAILED (3-7).
Representative Davies MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 6B:
(4) two volunteer fire fighters, one from a community with a
population of 2,500 or less and one from a community which a
population greater than 2,500;
(6) [(4)] two [FOUR] members of the public at large with
at least one
[TWO] member from a community [COMMUNITY] with a population
of 2,500 or less.
There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered.
Co-Chair Therriault MOVED to ADOPT Amendment 7. The
amendment would add, "the Council is encouraged to meet
electronically." He explained that the amendment would
allow the use of whatever electronic media is available.
There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered.
Co-Chair Therriault observed that the fiscal note needs to
be amended to reflect that the program does not meet the
definition of statutory designated program receipts.
In response to a question by Representative Martin, Co-Chair
Therriault explained that the commission is able to charge a
fee for certification. Representative Hodgins stressed that
the intent is that there will be no fiscal impact until the
year 2001.
Representative Martin expressed concern that the Council
would interfere with operations of the training program in
Anchorage. Representative Hodgins assured him that training
would always be needed. Representative Davis added that
there would be an additional cost for training at any
facility due to the cost of certification. He spoke in
support of the statutory designated program receipt fund
source. He observed that the definition of statutory
designated program receipt is narrow and expressed a desire
to see it expanded. He pointed out that the Department of
Public Safety's budget would be impacted by the legislation.
Co-Chair Therriault summarized that the problem is that the
program does not fit under the current definition.
Co-Chair Therriault MOVED to ADOPT a House Finance Committee
fiscal noted with a fund source change to general fund
program receipts. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so
ordered.
Representative Mulder MOVED to report CSHB 473 (FIN) out of
Committee with the accompanying fiscal note.
Representative Davies questioned if the effective date
should be changed. Representative Hodgins stated that the
delayed effective date was included to allow time to
consider standards and notify departments.
Co-Chair Therriault observed that moving the effective date
up a year would change the fiscal note. He pointed out that
the program was not budgeted.
SANDY PERRY-PROVOST, SPECIAL ASSISTANT, DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC
SAFETY stated that the fiscal note would be zero in the
years 1999 and 2000. She observed that an earlier effective
date would require funding for the year 2000. Further
discussion occurred regarding the effective date.
Representative Davies stressed that the majority of fire
fighters are not aware of the legislation. He spoke in
support of delayed implementation of the standards. He
suggested a staggered effective date. Co-Chair Therriault
pointed out that there is no mechanism to pay for the
Council at an earlier date. Representative Hodgins stated
that the intent is that the Council be set up by statute so
that they can begin working for the best solution.
Representative Mulder reiterated the motion to report CSHB
473 (FIN) out of Committee with the accompanying fiscal
note. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered.
CSHB 473 (FIN) was REPORTED out of Committee with "no
recommendation" and with a House Finance Committee for the
Department of Public Safety.
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